PS008 - Consent, Journeys and Yes
Lee Harrington is joined this week by Mollena Williams and Dan & dawn as he leads a discussion on consent. They range in topic from how to say no, how to say yes, negotiation, the Consensual Project, safe words and linguistics. Lee and Mollena also share some very personal examples where consent was not respected.Plus, bathhouses, sneaky penis and a bucket of worms.
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[music intro]
Announcer:
Welcome to Erotic Awakening, an educational and entertaining exploration of all things erotic. From sacred sexuality to fetishes, power exchange relationships and leather life, BDSM to polyamory, as well as simply fun kink. Each week, we bring you a diverse offering of erotic life in its many forms. This podcast includes frank discussions of highly sexual topics. If you are offended by this type of content or prohibited by law, we recommend you stop listening right now.Lee:
Hello, fellow adventurers of sexuality and spirit, and welcome to Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington. Here we are in July, and as promised, we are going to be talking about the notion of consent, some of the challenges we have around consent, and things like that. But, ta-da, we have a bit of a surprise this time, as they're giving themselves away already. I have with me in the studio, which I'm actually in a studio this time, instead of at home with my little traveling Yeti mic. I'm here with three fantastic individuals.The first is a sexuality author and educator who has spoken from San Francisco to Stockholm, Sweden, is a coalition partner for the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, a theater performance artist of quite delicious renown, and International Ms. Leather 2010, and an all-around badass human, Mollena.
[Mollena, Dan, and dawn cheer]
And the other two people you could hear in the background there, are a pair of individuals whose passion for BDSM, kink, sacred sexuality, and relationship authenticity is well known to many of you here on the podcast. They're the authors of Living M/s, Dan and dawn.
[Mollena, Dan, and dawn cheer]
And this is so exciting, because I've been on your podcast before, which is technically this podcast, but it's different when I'm on top.
[all laugh]
dawn:
Just a little bit, yeah.Dan:
This is twice in one week I’ve been bottoming! It's a new trend.Lee:
Yes, yes it is, indeed.And it's kind of fun to have us all here in Ohio together, since usually I'm far-flung in either Arizona or New York, or recording from Wisconsin or Canada, or wherever I'm recording from that given day. Not like Canada is the same thing as Wisconsin. There's parts of Canada. But yeah, it's kind of fun to have you guys here on my podcast. So thank you for joining me.
dawn:
Yeah, very nice to be here.Lee:
And Mollena is joining us here in Ohio because she and I are in the midst of this crazy, mad, beautiful project for Greenery Press.Mollena:
That'll be fantastic.Lee:
It is! On the kink community, and understanding how to navigate it, and negotiate yourself within it, and hopefully not piss off too many people or, you know, your spouse or any of that kind of stuff. And so we've actually been holed up for the last week here in Ohio at Dan and Dawn's Place while you guys were out gallivanting around the world.dawn:
It seems like it! Lots of driving.Lee:
Lots of driving?dawn:
Mhm, so Canada to West Virginia.Lee:
Any particular part of Canada, or just like the entirety of Canada?dawn:
Oh, what was that? Hmm, north of…Dan:
North of Toronto, Ontario.dawn:
Yes.Lee:
Nice, nice. And then down to West Virginia for CampOUT.dawn:
Right.Dan:
Fantastic event, which we'll talk about soon on our own podcast.Lee:
Beautiful.dawn:
So lots of camping, lots of driving.Lee:
Yeah, and we've had some of our own camping experiences or so both Mollena and I were at Dark Odyssey Fusion.Mollena:
Yay!Lee:
A few weeks ago.Mollena:
Yeah, no, Fusion was a great event. That was my second camping kink event in 15-plus years.Lee:
Wow.Mollena:
No, I've avoided them, because I grew up in Manhattan. I trust cement. [all laugh] And I appreciate edifices, you know, so the idea of being away from that was, you know, a little bit terrifying, but I did well despite mold, bedbugs, bees, ants coming at me. I actually had to kill a fire ant in the middle of my class with a handful of lube packets. [all laugh] That was spectacular. And people were sad I didn't like “deploy” the lube. Like, I'm going to stand there with, you know, the lube packet going, “oh my god!” Rip, squirt, and drown the ant slowly. I actually chose a quicker death.Lee:
I'm suddenly having visions of Snoop Dogg and his army of gummy bears in the Katy Perry video.Mollena:
Don't ever talk about that again.Lee:
I'm sorry. [all laugh]Mollena:
I thought we had an agreement. [all laugh] That that would never leave the hotel room at ShibariCon.Lee:
It's a beautiful, beautiful world. So yeah, for you guys listening at home, it's been this random, beautiful mashup that's brought all of us here in one place together.And I, about a month and a half ago, did an interview withtheconsensualproject.com. Ben, who works there, got a hold of me to talk about alternative relationships, and their place in the notion and the conversation of consent, because he's been having that conversation predominantly talking from a place of consent in sexual encounters, consent in our political standpoints, and understanding consent from a place of not just how do we say no when we're uncomfortable, but how do we say yes to the things we really desire and want in this world?
And that, his enthusiasm, I mean, this guy is just - if you get a chance to go totheconsensualproject.com, this guy is just super inspired and passionate about the notion of consent, and he and I nerded out for hours. I'm hoping to bring him on as well at some point. And we nerded out for hours, and it was really inspirational to see someone outside of the BDSM, kink, polyamory, swinger, alt-sex communities, to be really exploring this notion of consent in a broader context. And so, being really jazzed up by him, I wanted to bring that conversation here and talk with - share my own thoughts, but also talk with you guys about the notion of where consent and the notion specifically of “yes” plays in with our world of sex, with our world at large.
So, I'm curious. I'll start with you, because your face kind of did some, “ooh,” kind of faces, which is great, Mollena.
Mollena:
Mostly because I haven't thought about spinning it that way. We talk so much about saying no.
Lee:
Yes, that's true.Mollena:
And about consent in terms of how do you stop something that you don't want from happening. I am very intrigued by the idea of fostering a communication around when you do give consent. Because I will say, I think frequently, giving consent and saying “yes” is often misconstrued by other people. And missed. There are so many times when we say yes to things that we think are very blatant and flagrant. Like, oh yes, please flirt with me. Oh yes, please touch me there. And the other person just sort of misses a cue, and then we miss the chance for very intense connections because our “yeses” are muted because of fear, or because of a breakdown in communication skills. So I'm very intrigued by that idea.Lee:
And I also think it's interesting that, because I've also seen a lot of stuff where people will say “yes” at one time, and then people won't get the message for another 15 to 20 minutes, but by then that window has passed, where the enthusiastic yes is no longer there, and now it's more like a, “well, maybe, if you finally get around to it.”Mollena:
No, it's true, because I know that there have been times when I have worked up the courage to finally make a pass at someone, or offer myself, and then if they don't come back with, “oh my god, yes!” then I think, okay, well, they don't want me, and then my spectacular defense mechanism, which involves me withdrawing any desire for them at all so that it minimizes my disappointment, “well, I don't really want to play with them anyway, it doesn't really matter.” You know, 10 minutes later, if they were like, “oh, no, really,” I'm like, “no, no, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think I said yes. I don't think I asked you out.”Lee:
You were nodding your head there a little bit, dawn.dawn:
Yeah, because I'm just trying to relate it back to the last couple of weekends we've had at events, you know. And what I find, something I figured out about myself, is I had someone really hardcore flirting with me over the last couple of days. But it almost felt like they felt entitled to something. So the defense mechanisms is what I was nodding to. Oh, mine go way up really fast, if someone's feeling entitled. But if I'm interested in somebody else, it's very hard for me to say, “yeah, come on, come on, I'm giving you this opportunity.” So it's very hard for me to be vocal about how I'm giving you this opportunity, which would totally turn me on.Lee:
And in the BDSM world, in the kinky sex world specifically, we get - I think there's an obsession with the notion of verbal consent. Like I have to have this either verbally or written down on a piece of paper signed with an affidavit, with a notary public there to stamp it and approve that I actually got this thing. But I think that there's other ways that we get consent, that aren't necessarily as explicit, but whether it might be body language, or you're talking about flirtation, that there's lots of different ways that we put that information out there in the world. I think it's a slippery slope sometimes, when it's not explicit.dawn:
Right.Lee:
But I think there's something there about that notion of giving consent in multiple different ways.dawn:
So I actually had someone come up to me, you know, yesterday or the day before yesterday, I got my days all mixed up, and she was like, no, I really am flirting with you. Hint hint, nudge nudge.Lee:
Just in case you missed it.dawn:
Oh, I did miss it. Great![all laugh]
Lee:
What a gift. That's such a gift to have somebody come up and say like, okay, so by the way, I might have been subtle.dawn:
Right!Lee:
Though there's the flip side that I've had happen. I was emceeing the Dirty Pig Leather Contest at Dark Odyssey last summer, and they had these things where we had to draw a question and the different contestants - you know, it was a title kind of thing, and the questions got asked of like, what were your dirty pig moments or what did you love? And this guy got a question of what's the dirtiest pig moment that you never took, in your life? What's your one regret of your dirty pig moment never embraced?And he looked at me and said, “I never got to actually make out with Bridgett.”
dawn:
Ohhhhh.Lee:
And Bridgett, for people who don't know, was my name before my gender transition. And what do you do when you're in front of 400 people, in front of an audience going, “well, you’re shit out of luck there, because that doesn't exist anymore, and, uh, sorry about that.”Because he was trying to do that same kind of thing. “I'm finally getting up the courage to say, I'm really interested in you, and I never said it from six years ago.” But at the same time, it’s like…I didn't consent to the experience of having that emotion brought up for me. So sometimes I think that how it all, like one person's desires, another person's desires, another person's emotional experience, how it affects somebody else, they can all mash together in a really fascinating way.
Mollena:
It's interesting.dawn:
So, had a great time. You know what, I did a lot of journaling this weekend about that stuff actually, so.Dan:
And just so I'm going to muddy the waters up a little bit more.Lee:
Please do!Dan:
So dawn and I are in a power exchange, Master/slave relationship. So when someone is flirting with me, I ask, do you identify, are you owned, are you property? And I had someone respond, why yes, I am owned by so-and-so. And they continue to this hard, hardcore flirting with me. It puts me in a very awkward position. Because now you've said, here's my protocol, and I'm breaking it over and over again.Lee:
Oh!Mollena:
So specifically she was not allowed to flirt with - because it sounds to me, just from the way it's said, she's like, “oh, that's my master. I'll continue to flirt.” And that might be fine for a lot of slaves.dawn:
No, she said, that's my master, and I will negotiate with him before I do any of this with you, and then didn't.Mollena:
Ohh.Dan:
But then we're in situations where we happen to both be naked, coincidentally, I'm sure. But where she was just kind of very close, stroking me, that kind of stuff. And it's like, you just told me this is not allowable, and you put me in a bad position where my consent levels are like, “wait a minute, you told me what your consent is, and now you're breaking it.” So here, let's further muddy the waters.Lee:
And I think there's a couple of different issues at play there beyond consent, which is respect and trust. So the respect for herself, of like, okay, this is what my limits are. This is what I've stated my limits are. This is what I've said, and what I've told the world and myself that my limits are, and where my lines of consent are. And yet I'm blatantly trouncing all over them. Where's the respect for herself? Where's the respect for the relationship? Where's the respect for you, right? Where's her respect for you in that situation?Mollena:
I think the other thing is that - not that everyone is responsible for everyone else in the community. I do not want to make that point. I do want to make the point that if slave A does that, and, you know, Dominant B says, oh, well, she said this, but she did this other thing, that's okay. And the next time another slave approaches them, you know, and is weird and wonky about boundaries, and maybe the same thing happens by the third time when the person has made a strong statement and the Dominant or Master says, oh, well, the last two times, it was cool.Dan:
Yeah.Mollena:
And then the new person is like, well, that's not cool. I just made this statement. Well, everyone else before you has been okay with it. And that happens quite a bit. And I think that as a group, training ourselves and each other to actually respect our own boundaries and to adhere to them is something we need to work on. I mean, I need to work on that myself, I know. I'm not perfect when it comes to maintaining my boundaries by any stretch.Lee:
I don't think it's just a submissive issue, either. I see a lot of people not respect their own boundaries, whatever those might be, whether they're around gender, whether they're as topping, bottoming. The number of times I, over the years, have been lovingly brow-beaten, as I refer to it myself, into doing scenes or topping things that I wasn't actually game for, that I didn't have the energy for. But eventually the puppy eyes kind of like sneaked up, snuck up on me and are just like [puppy whines] “Don't you love meeee? Won’t you do this for me?”I think, at least for myself, I think part of it's a linguistical challenge within the various alternative sexuality populations around things like safewording. We're supposed to stop when it's gone too far. You know, you were just bringing that up earlier, was that instead of having “happy words.” How do we say, I'm really good at this level, let's do more of this right here, we don't need to go any further, this is really excellent.
dawn:
I actually did that in a scene up in Canada. He was trying to do the number count thing with me, and I did six, seven, and like that. Well, I guess he was trying to get to ten, because he's like, how's this? I'm like, this is eight, and this is really good. Let's just stay here, we don't need to go any higher.Lee:
Nice!dawn:
Because I didn't want to safeword out. I wanted to stay there for a little bit longer, but he had bought me in an auction, so we didn't really know each other, so I had to give him that verbal communication, or we would have yellowed out and been done. But I actually did that. I was proud of myself!Mollena:
Yay!Lee:
That's yummy. I really, really enjoy that.dawn:
Yeah, and it made it a little more pleasant. And where he didn't know me, that kind of gave him some boundaries to work with too.Lee:
And I think even with our own partners, even with people that we've been exploring with for a period of time, I know there's times where, yeah, my body could do that six months ago, but today, no, really, can you not shove that through that? Because that's unpleasant. It was a really great idea six months ago, but my body can't do that right now. My mood can't do that right now. My spirit can't do that right now. My capacity is not where it was. And I, at least for myself, I've had times where people try to take me to the level that I used to be able to do. I have egoic self-doubt issues around, well, maybe I'm not as good as I used to be. Maybe I'm not holding up to what I used to have the capacity to do.
Dan:
It's funny when you're talking about the safewords, the linguistics, the different groups. When we talk alternative - we're not talking BDSM. We're talking alternative sexualities, right? So the language in a swing club is a completely different language. And no means no across the board, sure. But when I go into a swing club, if me and dawn are playing on the… not that dawn and I go to swing clubs, I'll tell you what we do. And if we're playing...dawn:
No, but we do. Not that we would go to a swing club. We are at a swing club that we don't go to, but we're there.[all laugh]
Dan:
On a quick side note, when I go to a swing club, if I tie Dawn up, everybody looks at me like, “whoa, that's amazing, man!” Oh yeah, it's called a single column tie. I studied in Tibet seven years for that. And at a BDSM event, it's like “Dan's so cute with his bondage!” [all laugh] But again, if I go to a swing club, and dawn and I are playing in a common area, and she's in some level of undress, it's not uncommon for someone to come up and just start rubbing on her and want to be involved. And there, I can say, “no, this is private play.” And they're like, “oh, okay.” But in the same situation, if it was a BDSM event, someone would make some kind of contact before they joined your scene. Chances are they'll never walk into - hopefully they'll never walk into the middle of the scene, but if they did, they're going to make some kind of contact beforehand.Mollena:
It's shocking and unusual when someone does breach that boundary.Dan:
Right.dawn:
It is. And what I try to explain with that is that in both environments, no means no. In the BDSM/kink environment, it's assumed no until you ask and are given a yes; in the swing environment, it's assumed yes until you say no. It's still “no means no,” but the first original assumption is a little different off the bat.Dan:
Right.Lee:
Though I would also, from my experience both in the swinger community and in the bathhouse community, is that it's not necessarily just “assumed yes,” but it's a lot more body language dependent. I find that people in the autism spectrum have a much harder time in the sexuality communities as compared to the kinky sex communities. I find that, for friends of mine that have Asperger's who are Aspies and whatnot, that in the bondage world where they can negotiate everything out with a 17-page checklist and sign it all with blood at the bottom of it, and understand how to repeat it time after time, because you've got it all on the table. We negotiate it all ahead of time. We set it all down, we then do it, we then debrief the whole thing.While in my experience in the swing community spaces, as a woman, was that people would brush against my knee, and if I didn't move back, they'd then maybe have their hands start to go over onto my knee. Like their knee would brush my knee, and then they would have their hand touch my knee. And if I leaned in, that would be an active, an invite, for them to actively move up my thigh. If I stayed perfectly still, they would stay at that level, fondling my knee.
Mollena:
That seems very sophisticated.Lee:
It was! It was very exciting. And I figured it out through guess and check, right? Because there wasn't anybody, except for a couple of times, and I'm just like, it was really cool. This guy just came and he started fondling my knee, and a friend of mine said, “well, were you flirting with him?” And I'm like, no, not really. He's like, “well, but you were a hot chick with big tits.” And I'm like, yeah. He's like, “so were you flirting with him by just kind of sitting there looking alone?” [all laugh] But it was kind of the truth.And same thing with bath house stuff, where actually, I've had friends of mine get really jarred entering gay men's sex spaces for the first time, from the kink community, especially by guys who are used to the heterosexual world and then coming in to their men-on-men kind of stuff, where in the men's community, if you see somebody's eyes, you see them, it lingers for more than two seconds, look away, and then you look back. That's cruising. I have not only looked at you once, I have now looked at you twice. I have restated my interest. And that is me basically throwing my lure out and see if it catches you.
dawn:
Oooh.Lee:
And then reel someone in. And if they're not interested, if that's the second look, they can go in a different direction and be like, I'm not really interested. But a lot of it's based at bathhouses on that second or third glance, or on somebody behind you putting a hand on your shoulder or a hand on your hip. And same kind of thing, if you push back against them, that's an active invite. If you don't push back against them at all, let's say I'll stay exactly where it is. If you move away, that's a, “well, I guess I'm okay with you watching me while I go have sex with some other guy, but please don't touch me again.”Mollena:
That's a lot of body language.Lee:
It's a lot of work. And so that notion of consent within those kinds of frameworks? Blehhh.Mollena:
It's really complicated. And I think that that's where the lines blur and become difficult.Lee:
Mm-hmm.Mollena:
When I talk about negotiation, in my classes, one of the examples I cite specifically is the first time I had an encounter with someone that was explicitly, deliberately, kinky in an aggressive sort of way, where there was no negotiation. And I did not know this guy, we'd spent maybe a day together. And then suddenly I'm, like, pushed up against a wall with like a knee in my cunt, and I'm getting choked, and I have a belt around my neck, and I'm getting beaten. And the whole time I'm thinking, “okay, these are the hallmarks of a sexual assault, but I'm really turned on. [dawn chuckles] So let's just ride this one out. Let's just see how it goes.Lee:
Right.Mollena:
And when I talked to him later, I said, “now, at no point did I say this was okay for you to do. What the fuck did you think you were doing?” And he said, well, you didn't stop me. And he said, “and it was easy for me to tell from the way you reacted that you were there.” And I said, wow, that's really risky. I said, have you ever had a woman push back or stop? And he thought about it, and he said, yeah, once. I was like, wow, you must - he says, no, I'm very good at selecting and seeing who wants what I have to offer.And it's interesting because on the one hand, that sounds really hot and sexy. On the other hand, it's extremely problematic, [all agree] and very dangerous, and very risky for, and I think personally, the greatest risk, first and foremost is to the aggressors, to the person putting themselves out there.
dawn:
Absolutely.Mollena:
Because at any point, you are now very vulnerable. You're in an extremely vulnerable situation. So I want to compare and contrast that with getting the consent, which is a safer way to approach those sorts of things, but not to negate the power of that body language and that non-verbal consent, you know?Lee:
Though body language, and bodies saying yes, and minds saying yes, are very different things. And in the spiritual tradition that I work with a lot, there's the notion that we have three different selves. We have our body experience, our skin-suit, the hungers that we have of the flesh. We have our intellectual self and we have our energetic self. And the three of them all work together to create that thing called “us.” To create called “I am,” whatever it is.And my first sexual experience, other than with myself when I was a little kid, was when I was 12 years old and I was sexually assaulted by somebody that I knew from high school. And - because I was that kid, I was 12 years old in high school. Anyway. And it was really challenging that I had my first full orgasmic experience, like squirting and all, in the midst of being raped. My body was all into it. My brain and my spirit were not.
dawn:
Right.Lee:
And that, you know, so the notion of, you know, can it legally mess up the aggressor? Absolutely. But did it psychologically mess up, you know, me as the person who was assaulted? Absolutely, because my body was saying, like my body, even though I was fighting and screaming and trying to get away, my body was squirting all over the place. So he was reading it as a, “oh, they're not into it, but I'm gonna push them anyway.”And I've talked to him since then. And he was like, I felt really, really horrible about it, but you were also weren't, you were fighting away, but you weren't, your body was still saying yes at the same time.
Mollena:
And that's them using excuses. Sorry.Lee:
Oh no, and he and I actually- Yeah, he and I have actually had some really intense conversations, you know, 12 plus years after the mark, because he and I reconnected after I started my gender transition. And the hilarity of the story is that in the midst of everything of us, you know, having this really deep, debrief post, you know, reconnecting and re-seeing each other for the first time at a kinky sex club, having not seen each other since I was, you know, an early teen. Not quite teen, technically.We saw each other and I talked to him for a little bit, and he was, you know, was game for having a long conversation. And he finally burst out laughing. He's like, “I'm really sorry to laugh, but can we just double-check something?” I'm like, yeah? He's like, “so you're a guy now?” And he's like, “so I've never had sex with a chick?” And this was funny because the reason that he had sexually assaulted me was to prove to his Mormon mother that he in fact wasn't gay. So it's one of those, you know.
Mollena:
Oh my god.[Lee laughs]
Mollena:
Yeah, it's just…ugh.Lee:
Yeah, exactly.Mollena:
The ugly flip side of the ugliness of corrective rape.Lee:
Yes.dawn:
What the fuck?Lee:
Yeah.Mollena:
I need 10 minutes. My brain just shut down. I need to reboot.Lee:
But it is something to consider with that notion of consent that, oh yeah, body language consent. That's such a great way to work with it. But nooooo.dawn:
Well, see, and we've got a story, too, where we took a girl up to our hotel room. We had just done a sensual spanking thing in Atlanta. So, we had done that, whe seemed interested in it. We negotiated with her master, who let her go up to the room with us, you know. We negotiated everything up front. No sex, no nothing, it was just going to be this. You know, everything is laid out. I'm up at her head as Dan's spanking her, and it's all hot, and it's all sexy, and she's getting all wet, and she whispers to me, she goes, “I know I said no sex, but I really want to, how can I add that in now?” And I'm like, “sorry, sweetie, you can't.” You negotiated no sex, and now that your body is saying yes, that's unconsensual for us.Lee:
Yeah.dawn:
We can't cross that line. The next time we play, make sure you say yes to sex upfront. I'm like, but now that you're, it's kind of like being on a drug. Once we've manipulated your body that much, which is what we're doing, you're on a drug and can't consent.Lee:
Well, it's not even kind of, it is. You're high.Dan:
Right.Lee:
You are high.
dawn:
And we can't, because you can't, that's what we're doing. We're manipulating people's bodies. When it comes to BDSM and stuff like that, that's why I have a hard time topping sometimes. Even though I know it's hot for them and they want it, I can't get past the whole manipulation of the body thing. That's just me - I love having it done to me.Dan:
Yeah.
dawn:
You're shaking your head no.
Dan:
No, no, I'm just saying from a top perspective, I don't consider it - although it quite is, I will not discredit that it is manipulating the body. I think it of it as like playing an instrument.dawn:
Ah, okay, good.
Dan:
And getting the best response I can from that instrument, right? And in the example that you used, yeah, I was hot too.dawn:
I know.
Dan:
But again, it's like you said, but at the negotiation part, for example, you know, I mean, if Linda Lou said, “oh Dan, I think you're really hot, I'd love to do a sensual spanking scene with you.” That's what we're, now I will consent to a central spanking scene, right? If she tells me that, you know - and I've had this happen - we get started, and they're like, “oh, I meant, you know, and fucking and sucking too.”You know, now I've gotta go back - sure, my body's ready to go, but I gotta go back and say, “wait a minute, I'm not, I don't know if I'm comfortable fucking,” and to be honest, and no, I hope none of the podcast listeners listen, I'm not comfortable fucking strangers. That's why I suck at swinging, you know?[Lee laughs] It's unfortunate! And it'll kick me out of the men's club. But really, I...
Mollena:
Where are all the slutty men?Dan:
I tell ya…Lee:
[sings, tune “Where Have All the Flowers Gone”] Where have all the slutty…dawn:
He’s slutty![all laugh]
Mollena:
I think it's interesting because you do have to maintain a degree of autonomy when it comes to saying yes, and autonomy when it comes to saying no, because you cannot necessarily trust everyone to the same degree. In the same way that you don't feel comfortable screwing someone you don't know. That's probably a good thing. I had a situation where someone I said no to violated my consent, by inserting their penis into me without protection. This was after we had been playing for a day. We had basically spent the whole day together. I was doing some service stuff. There was a lot of, you know, D/s stuff that had been kicked in.And we got down to a point where we were fooling around. And he's like, I wanna fuck you. And I was like, I would love that, grab a condom. And he was like, I don't want to. And I said, no, I don't have sex without barrier protection. That's just, no, don't do that. And after half an hour of cajoling and pushing and continued play, my brain just shut down into the sort of like, “well, uhhh…” you know, right?
Dan:
Yeah, yeah.Mollena:
And then he pushed that boundary. And it was interesting because for a month afterwards, I was like, well, I didn't kick him away. And I stopped saying no. So I consented passively.dawn:
No.Mollena:
And then a couple of months further, and I said, you know, no, I didn't actually.Dan:
Yeah.
Mollena:
And when I started talking about that - the number of people in the scene - and outside of the scene, because it's crossed over - who had said I've had the same thing happen, was overwhelming. In fact, the vast majority of people said they had been involved in that situation versus people who said they had not. And that type of - the thing that I found interesting is that you don't want to blame the victim and say, “well, you should have stopped it.” But by the same token, where does your responsibility lie? I know about myself, I'm not good at safewording. I know that my brain gets overwhelmed. And when I play with tops, and I think it's gonna get that far, I will say, do not rely on me. I am not a good beacon for when you should stop. So if that's a problem for you and you don't want that responsibility, don't play with me.Because the yes and the no might very well be faulty.Lee:
And I think that's for myself why I come back to the concept of yeses as compared to the nos. Because if we only hand people our no list, there's a fault on the part of the person who is having things done to them. Or the person who provided the list, because it might be the top who provided the no list, right? Whoever was providing the no list. Well, if your no list wasn't exclusive - inclusive enough.I remember being in a class that Midori was doing down in Melbourne, Australia, on psychological terror and phobia play, which was very hot, very sexy. And this one guy was like, okay, here is my list, and he was so proud of himself. He'd written down this 15 point, really, thing with breakdown points. It was like this two page document of all of his nos, very clearly stated. And Midori read it out loud to the entire lit group and went, okay, cool, cool. She's like, okay, so what can we still do?
And I raised my hand and I'm like, well, according to his list, it would be okay for me to take his legal driver's license, blow it up 20 times, blow it up to be like 20 foot by 10 foot, hang it from the side of a building and suspend him naked from it. And the guy was like, “What?! Who would do that?”
dawn:
Well! [all laugh] Someone creative just stomped up.Lee:
And it was that concept that like, well, you didn't say no. So what's the issue?dawn:
Right. That's when you get to “spirit of the law” versus “letter of the law.”Mollena:
Right, right.dawn:
And I can remember the whole story of the objectification room, you know? And I had to come up with this list of no's that they were gonna hang over my head.Lee:
For people who weren't there, the objectification room was this experience at an event that we were both at, where parts of bodies were hanging out from, you know, behind a curtain, and random voyeurs or people who were coming by could come by and interact with that body object - with a spotter in the room to make sure that the list of yes's and no's above the list, above the body part were respected.dawn:
Exactly, and that safer sex was used and things like that.Lee:
Exactly.dawn:
So right, we did have the little guards for us, but I had to come up with a list of no's. And I'm like, well, how do I know I've covered everything? So I ended up coming up with like two things, and some yes's.Lee:
Right.dawn:
And the yes's ended up being what people were more comfortable with. Because they knew that was allowed instead of what was just forbidden.Lee:
Well, not just allowed, but desired.dawn:
Yeah.Dan:
Yeah, and that's the huge part, right?Lee:
That's huge.Dan:
As somebody who walks into that room, and I look at somebody's list of yeses, that's telling me, I have no clue who you are, but the reality is, yeah, you're an object, but the reality is, I wanna see you squirm. [all laugh] And you told me, here's the things that'll make me squirm. I was like, all right, that's fantastic. You're giving me a roadmap to make you juicy, or hard, right? So, who wouldn't want that?Mollena:
The sociopathic sadists, god bless ‘em.Lee:
Yes! Right.Mollena:
Who will look for the loopholes, who will say, oh, you put on your list, on your limits list, no animals. Can I dump a bucket of worms on your crotch? [dawn laughs] Can I take a bag of bees and put them on your head?dawn:
No!Mollena:
Are they animals? No, they're insects. It's like, come on, seriously?[dawn laughs]
Lee:
I was actually at a class once where, or demo kind of thing once, where a top said, all right, this bottom has negotiated ahead of time. The person's like in a hood, and has been like, staple gunned to a wall with seat belts. And actually, it was electric nails. There was this ka-chunk, ka-chunk noise.dawn:
Oooooh!Lee:
On the seatbelt, not on their skin.dawn:
Oh, whew! [laughs]Lee:
But yeah, it was -dawn:
Just on the scrotum.Lee:
Just on the - no, no, no. No, he was pretty safe with the nail gun, with the electric nail gun. Anyway. And they announced in the middle of it, the bottom has negotiated for no animals of any sort to be used. So we are informing the bottom, at this time, that dead mealworms that have been blended into a drink are instead just a power supplement item and are protein. And since this individual is not a vegetarian or vegan, we do not foresee that this will be an issue.And they just said that. And then never introduced the power drink. In fact, the power drink didn't exist.
dawn:
Oh my god, mindfuck.Lee:
But they just said those words. And when it comes to mindfuck, suddenly we open up this entire realm around the notion of consent that's just like- okay, so I agreed to have my mind fucked with, but you're playing with a thing that I'm not cool with. Soooo… what now? Where's that line today?dawn:
That line's totally blurred, isn't it? Wow.Lee:
Yeah, the other one that I've been playing around with and that line is, so there's the whole mind fucked with. But also, what about the notion of time? Where I might have agreed to - we had that really hot scene in the spur of the moment, we did that one thing that was really, really hot, and I was okay with it then. I even said “yes” then. But then in retrospect, three weeks later, I'm thinking about it and I'm like, ooh, that was not a good idea. I shouldn't have done that. Or if that wasn't my sober mind speaking, where is consent when we look at it along a timeline?Mollena:
My feeling is that, because I've seen this happen where you have the buyer's remorse.Lee:
Yeah.Mollena:
And I seriously think that you have to take responsibility for it. If you did not say no at the time, I think it's fair to go back and say, you know what, I'm having a problem with this now. But I think to assign blame, or to take your own journey and your own experience and slam it on someone else and say, fix this, because my shift - because I've had a shift around it, I think that that's actually pretty risky, and I think that it puts all the parties involved in the scene in a very risky position.Because what we're doing is dangerous. There is an aspect of danger to it, emotionally, physical, psychological, sexual. For a lot of us, that's part of the reason we do it is because the risk is fucking hot. And so if things go south, my personal belief is if things go south, and you turn around and you're lashing out, looking for someone to blame except yourself, you're putting yourself into a situation where I think you are being unfair.
dawn:
Mm-hmm.Mollena:
I think you're being unfair to the other person involved because they acted in good faith. I think you're being unfair to yourself because - and this is gonna get kind of like earthy crunchy, but if you had an experience that was difficult, and in retrospect shit came up for you, you probably have something to learn around it. Not resist it, and fight it, and think, I've gotta kill this into a bad experience. Sit with the pain and say, “this hurts now, why does it hurt? What about this is a growth point for me?” Versus saying, you crossed a boundary and a line, it’s your fault. And I'm gonna say, like, you're a bad top or you're a bad submissive or whatever it is.dawn:
But I think it's still okay to tell them, even though I said yes then, I'm not okay with it now.Mollena:
Right. And inform them.dawn:
Inform them, and be okay with it being off the list or whatever for the future.Mollena:
Definitely.dawn:
For a while.Lee:
But I think that's the difference between facts and stories. The fact is, my opinion has changed. The story is, you're a bad person. We don't know the story. Facts are useful. Pieces of information are useful, but the baggage we attach to them, I don't think always is good for that earthy, crunchy growth-thing.Mollena:
No. And I'll tell you, in the situation where this person violated my boundary, I went back to him and I said, you know, this was really difficult for me because I said no to you explicitly at least three or four times, and you pushed anyway. And that made me feel violated, and it took me a while to process it, but what I need for you to understand is that that was not okay. I need for you to acknowledge that. I would love for you to apologize for what you did because on a basic level, I should know when you cross the boundary. And I need for you to be tested and to get back to me with that information. And I will do the same for you. I think that's only fair.And his reaction was to do none of those things. His reaction was to become defensive and say, well, you know, I don't have anything. And I don't usually do that, and, you know, don't worry about it. And to refuse to take responsibility and to become dismissive. And I felt at that point, I said, wow, I did what I felt was the most responsible and ethical thing, which was to tell them what had happened, explain my feelings.
dawn:
Right.Mollena:
And I didn't come back at him screaming or freaking out and making accusations. I said, I need your help on this because this is really a terrible problem for me right now.
Lee:
Right.Mollena:
And when the response I got back was defensive and dismissive, I said, okay. You know, I did the best that I could. Now, I have to figure out a way to sleep with myself at night.Lee:
Yeah.
Mollena:
You know, and to take responsibility for the part of it that I could take responsibility for, and to let go of the rest. And that's… it's an ongoing process, I'll say, you know. But you're right, you absolutely have to let all parties involved know, you know, and say this was a problem versus, you know, not saying anything, squashing the evolution down into a tiny box! Until it blows up somewhere else. [laughs] Land mine! [kablooey sound]Lee:
But I like tiny boxes, they're so cute![Mollena laughs]
Dan:
The part that I know that for myself, that I have to work on, is because as a, somebody in the community does a little teaching, you know, you have expectations. And I think up until maybe a year or two ago, and that's just my perception, we were supposed to be consent um…banner carriers. Always say no, consent support and consent support and just say consent, consent, consent, consent. Which is good, it's good to be aware of it.But my problem, for Dan, is I have to get better about the yes part. And the one thing - that I sat in a class with Graydancer just a few weeks ago, and he was saying about “bring out the slut.” And for myself, I realized I don't bring out the slut anymore. I go to these events, and I don’t allow… I’m so digging the “no, no means no!” You know, oh, you want to play with me? No! [all laugh] I've lost the yes part of it. And allowing myself to say yes, and to be comfortable saying…
Instead of starting off with this big list of… Here's the 10 things I never do, here's the 10 things I won't do with you. To say, here's the things I'd love to share with you. And if we go off in this direction, we're gonna have to think about this, if we go off this, we have to think about this, but man, these are the things I'm digging. Why don't we explore these areas? But I've lost the intrinsic, the open-hearted approach to that, right? Where, man, I like wearing my consent cloak, but...
Mollena:
[announcing a superhero] Consent Man! [dawn giggles]Dan:
I was thinking some Harry Potter sort of - Cloak of Consent. [all laugh] I could not see him in the dungeon, he's consented too much! To nothing!Lee:
Safewordius! [all laugh]Dan:
Corpus erectus! [all laugh]dawn:
Oh my god. Geekin’ out.Dan:
I’m done. [all laugh]Lee:
I think that's a really excellent point. And the notion of how do we, as individuals, embrace our yeses? And how do we start out, without coming with our giant shopping lists of yeses and nos that are overwhelming in both directions? How do we introduce these and things, the ideas to people of like, “I wanna do stuff with you.”Mollena:
Hi.Lee:
Hi, Mollena. [timidly] I think you're interesting.Mollena:
I think you suck. Go away. [all laugh] As I role-play… okay! Take two.Lee:
Hi, Mollena.Mollena:
Hi.Lee:
[timidly] Hi, I think you're interesting.Mollena:
Yay.Lee:
[timidly] Would you wanna maybe do some stuff sometime?Mollena:
Okay, like what?Lee:
Um… ehhhh. Yeah, that's about where I get. See?Mollena:
Yeah. And I'll tell you, someone who I recently played with, who both of us had thought the other was cool for years, and finally, finally sort of like, hey - exactly that. And we played and had a great scene. He goes, okay, before we get together, I want you to tell me what you like. What do you want to do?And this has become an obsessive track in my head. Because I've been so long in my head about providing service and everything I do is pretty much, what does the top want to do? What pleases them? And then I get off on that. But saying, what pleases me? And I'll tell you, what I have found has helped in that, is making it very specific, rather than negotiating a “scene.”
And I had a great time with this at, what was it? I went to Twisted Tryst. A friend of mine said, this guy over here, I'm pointing to this little rock and roll hippie dude, this guy over here is a drummer in a band and he will drum on your ass. And I'm like, really? He'll just drum on my ass? And he goes, yeah. He'll take out his iPod, you put on some rock and roll, he drums on your ass.
And I was like, I said yes, because I had nothing to do, I was at this camp, I was in the woods, I was already disoriented and freaked out. [all laugh] You know, I will lay by this pool outside, but it was cool because it was on cement. You know, and just let this person I didn't know. But the thing is, that we didn't have to negotiate much because it was one thing.
dawn:
Right.Mollena:
And I felt safe saying, this is the one thing you will do, and that's it. And I was able to relax, knowing that the sea would not go any further than him, with his assortment of drumsticks, drumming on my ass. And we got the - Lee busted out the iPod and were laying by the pool and people sort of sitting around, and it started. And I was like, okay, what's going to happen is drumming on my ass. And I relaxed. And it was epic! Holy crap. Because he was a really good drummer actually, and got really into it. And was, you know, that's its own sort of intensity and it's sort of contact.And like 45 minutes later, the person who was supposed to get up next was like, ahem… You know, I'd had like six or seven orgasms, and I'm like, wow, this is amazing. You know, and that's all we did.
dawn:
Nice.Mollena:
And I felt safe because it was specific, and I actually recommend that to people when they're negotiating and playing with strangers at the convention: don't just do a scene, pick one fucking thing.dawn:
Right. And stick to it.Dan:
That's great.dawn:
Because I had an instance where I got offered something, and I'm like, well, I have to go ask my husband, because we went to a swing club, and I have to go ask my husband, make sure it's okay. And I'm like, and this is what we're gonna do, right? This is what you're interested in doing. He wanted to eat me, right? And I'm like, okay, well, this is it. I'm good with this. Well, then we get in there, and he's done, and he's like, “okay, my turn.” I'm like, “no!”[all laugh]
Mollena:
Sorry, my turn!dawn:
You agreed to one thing, that's it.Lee:
Though on the hot version of that, because that's kind of like the turn-off version in some ways. [laughs]dawn:
Denied!Lee:
I got to do that with a play partner of mine who, you know, he really wanted to bottom to me. And I'm like, cool, come to my hotel room, we'll do some stuff. And, you know -dawn:
We'll do some stuff. Things will happen.Lee:
And so there was two of us, who were going to co-top this cute little boy. And he was in between my legs going, “Oh, Sir, Sir, can I please suck your cock? Can I please suck your cock?” And I'm like, well, did we negotiate for that? He's like, no, but I'm bottoming to you, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, you don't happen to have any dental dams in there, do you? He's like, well, no, but I'm okay with that. I trust you.And I'm like, that's a shame, because we didn't negotiate that, and I don't have unprotected oral sex with anyone that I haven't, you know, negotiate everything hyper ahead of time, et cetera, et cetera. [sultry voice] So, shame you didn't ask for that ahead of time, isn't it, boy? [all laugh] And I'm like, you're gonna now kiss right here. And I point two inches from the, like right up on my mons and on the top of my - Now you're gonna gnaw right there while he beats your ass.
And he's like, “but that's so close!” And I'm like, I know. [dawn laughs] It's a shame that it's so close to that cock you wanna suck. Such a shame. Doesn't that make you wanna negotiate more acutely for your desires? [all laugh]
He's like, [pleading voice] “no, I could go and get some condoms!” I'm like, no, no, you're not gonna like - you're saying you wanna leave us? You wanna leave our presence? Are you saying this isn't good enough for you? [pleading] “No Sir, it’s -” Yeah. Good times.
dawn:
Good times!Mollena:
That's cause you're just mean.Lee:
Yes. And it's a fair assessment. But it’s all about the love.Dan:
We need to just move on cause I wanna suck your cock at this point, and I don’t even know what we’re talking about, and I know we haven’t negotiated that!Lee:
Oh, you say the sweetest things.Dan:
But the flip side to this, and I totally dig it, I totally agree, and I love as a top, I think it's incredibly sexy to say, we're gonna make out, but the only parts of our body that we're allowed to make out, to be part of this, is parts that are not currently covered in clothes. So that arm, that you think you're gonna spend seven seconds on, on your weighted tits, no, you better work on that, because that's the only part of this toy. We're gonna focus on this area, right? That's very hot to say, let's make our play limited to a certain activity.The flip side is, and I hate to say this, because of all the icky stuff we talked about early, and the abuse of consent and all that, if I was gonna play with someone particularly spiritual, and I don't know how he plays, or if he plays with other people, I'll pick Raven Kaldera out of the air, right? I do know he's a very spiritual person, and if I wanted to play with Raven, I said, I don't know what we should do. You let Spirit guide you. I brought you this deerskin bag. I hope that you get something from it. And then I just abase myself? Man, where the fuck might he take me? Wouldn't that be something?
And although - there's, remember, Mr. Consent Man is saying, “oh my God, what if he did you up the ass?” And part of me says, maybe that's what Spirit, maybe that's what I need right now. Can I put enough of a little boundary? I mean, Raven's not gonna do anything that's -
Mollena:
No, but are you consenting to the experience versus the individual?Lee:
Right, because you did say yes. You said, take me on this journey. You did say yes, you just didn't say yes to activities. You said yes to a journey.Mollena:
Right, I think that that is a consent as well, and it should be acknowledged. But I think you need to explicitly take responsibility and say, “I am aware that this journey could be dark.”Dan:
Yeah.Mollena:
And I accept my part in the responsibility and whatever my higher power is bringing me to. And that, I feel, is actually spiritually ethical.dawn:
I got chills.Lee:
Yeah, I think that comes back to that notion of trust and responsibility. Where do those things play into consent? And I think it is part of this grand equation that somewhere out there, there's some sort of mythical machine. You can plug in all the different information and be told, “Yes, they have consented, no, they have not.” And just like a little answer will pop out of the algorithm, it'll all make sense.Mollena:
But yeah, it's not quite so easy.dawn:
No.Mollena:
You know, and I love the idea of taking personal responsibility. I think it's very important, even when things go south. You know, and that's first and foremost, you know.dawn:
Absolutely.Lee:
Especially when things go south, I would say. Because if our ethical framework is something that is easy to do in the good times, but impossible to do in the hard times, then it's not an ethical framework. Then it's an easy, you know, catch-all phrase that we can say and, you know, put up like our giant Cloak of Consent and say like, oh, I'm safe, sane, and consensual - but when we get down to, you know, tires hitting the road, if you can't actually hold to that, is it really your ethical framework?Mollena:
Not so much.Lee:
Not so much. So for myself, I think, at least how I work with that, and I'm curious about each of you, so to wrap up kind of the concept is, how do you develop your own ethical construct towards figuring out is this consent, is this not? What is the tool used to listen to that inner voice? And it's a light one. [pause] You got one there?dawn:
Wow, no.Dan:
I'm very lucky in this regard, in that I'm not particularly… from what I've seen of other people, my dick really doesn't have a voice in what I get to do, right? And when I, perhaps when I was younger, my dick had a louder voice, but at this point in my life and for the last many years, this is side effect of - maybe it's a tantrika thing, I don't know. But my dick doesn't really, isn't really my ethical, it's not part of my ethical construction method, right?For males, this is a little more hairy. For, you know, in your example earlier, Mollena, the dick took over for the person's normal ethical behavior, right? So… I'm very fortunate that I don't have that so much. So that allows… it's really a matter of… gosh, English, right?
Lee:
Right.[Mollena chuckles]
Dan:
But it's understanding the emotional impact of what you're doing. Because for me, it comes out of… practicing fucking up. You think you're engaged in some kind of cool, sort of deep, sensual play, and you find out you leave somebody not feeling good afterwards, and you build your framework.And yeah, I think that my consent ethical boundaries have that maybe a lot in mind. To say, look, my fun is not worth fucking you up. And if I have to avoid having fun because I think I might be fucking you up, I'm going to avoid some fun, but it's very, I'm not in a good state with that, because I've… maybe padded too much.
dawn:
Yeah, so I think that's where I'm at.Dan:
Do no harm, right? It's “do no harm” and “err on the side of caution” is where I currently sit in the consent framework.Lee:
Where you currently sit today.Dan:
Yes.dawn:
So it does get a little difficult to think about because I do err on the side of caution very much. And padded, I guess I am very padded as well. I've got the whole abusive background as well. So I'm very deep into the consent part, and very much not wanting to push people past their boundaries, and what they're comfortable with and what may hurt them.And like I said, when I co-top or whatever, not allowing them to change their mind in midstream, something they may regret later. You know? I just want it all to be positive stuff. But in the meantime, I've got my defense mechanisms heavily in place so that I'm responsible for protecting me. I can rely on Dan to protect me, but I also have to rely on me to protect me. And it's actually very much a balancing act. It gets a little difficult sometimes. And I don't know if that really answers your question, but very much err on the, work on the side of caution.
Mollena:
Can you restate the question? It's morphed a bit from my head.Lee:
What tools do you use to discern whether this thing is in fact consensual or not? Was the original question.Mollena:
Um…You know, I will say that, and this probably makes sense as to why the question morphed for me, because I am in a phase in my life of letting go of a lot of expectation. And I'm in a place of really giving up the illusion that I have control over things in my life. And I know that everyone has a different approach to whether or not they think it's fate, or personal choice, or if you chose this path in the eons before this lifetime, you know, and you are responsible for everything that happens because you chose it. You know, and I have many friends like that.My particular thing is, my belief system is, I'm given obstacles that specifically are designed to be troubling. And it is my job to take these troubling things that happen, and absorb them and learn from them and not destroy myself over them. Because I am my worst enemy when it comes to that.
So part of what my control mechanism around being alert to things when they slide out of my control, or when they no longer feel consensual is to say, why is that happening? How much of this is my responsibility? What responsibility can I take? And what can I do to get out of this situation safely, and with as much of me intact as possible?
And if things do go awry, to forgive myself first. Because I am a horrible, horrible abuser of my own self. [Lee sighs deeply] And so the first thing I have to say is, you know what? You did nothing to deserve unhappiness. And actually, what you deserve is bounty and beautiful gifts. And this horrible experience is a beautiful gift. So look there, and see where that is.
And what's remarkable about it is, although it's very difficult, and the process is sometimes literally gut-wrenchingly, nauseatingly painful, on the far side of it, and when I get through it, I really see that even the very difficult experiences have their own beauty. Whether or not it's like a twisted, horrible, scary beauty, like the edge of a cliff beauty, or a little flower growing in a forest beauty, you know, or a little kitten playing on a pillow kind of beauty, or you know, a monster about to rip you open, and this is your last second on earth beauty.
Lee:
Yeah.Mollena:
You know, and all of those things are part of that. So I kind of am becoming less dependent on my own signals, because I know the body and the mind and the spirit don't always work together in my case. [laughs] They fight a lot, you know. And so when I'm able to relinquish that fear and say, I don't know if this is right, I'm not sure, but I'm gonna live it, fully, and figure it out later. Does that make any sense?Lee:
I think it does. And I think two of the lines that you just finished up with there, I think were pieces that people can go home with. Which are: we deserve beauty. That we live in a life that is full of beauty and potential, even in the hardest of shadowy places, and shadowy of times. Even in the hardest of questions, there is that beauty shining there like a gem.And the other one that you said was the notion of being on the journey. And that's my hope is that people listening at home will ask themselves these questions, weigh out and sift through this thing called consent, called sex, called love, called joy, called being, and see where it goes from here.
So with that, for people who - I wanna say thank you to the people who joined me today. Mollena can be found on her blog at mollena.com, M-O-L-L-E-N-A dot com.
Mollena:
Thank you for spelling it.Lee:
Yeah! Because otherwise people are gonna be like -Mollina:
M-E-L-I-N-A.[Dan laughs]
Lee:
[Valley Girl voice] Like, oh my god, like, it's like Mollena. Is that like semolina? Are you, like, a flower? Are you a brown flower?Mollena:
I'm either that or people will get the song, too, when they look up Mollena. And I'm like, no, the song is about me. I was not named after the song.Lee:
It's true, it's true. So mollena.com, and you can find Dan and Dawn, came and joined me today. Thank you so much for having, being on my podcast, on your podcast, in our podcast. How's that? At eroticawakening.com and - eroticawakenings? I always get the -Dan:
No, no way.Lee:
I was correct the first time! Yay!dawn:
It's only one awakening.Lee:
The singular erotic awakening of our truth.dawn:
You have the awakening and then you're awake erotically.Lee:
Fantastic.dawn:
Unless you take an erotic nap, I guess. [all laugh]Lee:
eroticnappings.com, maybe. All the rage. So you can find them and their work at eroticawakening.And for folks who are interested in getting ahold of me, you can find my information at passionandsoul.com. That's P-A-S-S-I-O-N-A-N-D-S-O-U-L.com. And find me under PassionAndSoul pretty much anywhere on the internet. Fetlife, Facebook, Twitter, Audioboo, it all finds me. It all finds me.
Dan:
How about Google+?Lee:
Probably Google+ as well. I’m… Yes, probably.dawn:
Are you on Google+ yet?Lee:
Not, uh… [sighs][Mollena laughs]
Dan:
I'll send you an invite.Lee:
I've gotten about 22, I think, at this point. I’ve been doing -dawn:
Come on, be an early adopter. Stop trying to be cool -Lee:
- this thing, called writing a book… I've been busy.dawn:
Oh, some of us have also been writing a book and are on Google+. Thank you.Lee:
I see how you are.[all laugh]
dawn:
That's chapter five coming, bitch! [all laugh] Are you on Google+?Lee:
Oh, oh, slacker. Slacker. I am. I'm a slacker, it's true. I even got a slacker ribbon at Dark Odyssey Fusion because I was such a slacker by being there five days before the event showed up, to get it running.So with that, thank you for joining us here at Erotic Awakening and have a fantastic journey. Stay cool, have fun, and don't do anything that I wouldn't do, which luckily isn't much.
Take care.
